The current state of Pathfinder - discussion

[KingOfVrock]

When someone criticizes WizKids or WotC, people defend them. When people attack Paizo based on straight up falsehoods, and I defend them, everybody’s an honorary mod all of a sudden. It’s sad really. Just rename the site D&DMinis already and be done with it.

You're not defending Paizo, you are just throwing insults around like a child.

It's fine to have an opinion or even disagree with other's opinions. It helps if you aren't an A-hole about it.

[Sahu]

As someone who loves Pathfinder 2e and follows the company pretty closely, this discussion feels bizarre to me.

Pathfinder 2e, as mentioned by I think Luis Losa, has outsold 1e despite being out half as long as 1e. They continue to push out regular banger after banger with their books, recently their war of immortals and divine mysteries being excellent rule and lore expansions. Earlier this year they released their massive Tian Xia books, which are some of the best setting and character option material I've read recently. They mentioned getting a record number of responses on their playtest feedback for the two new classes coming next year, so I dont see a reason to think they aren't doing just fine. If reducing marketing allows them to keep up the product quality they've been having, I'm totally ok with that.

I feel like the metrics are skewed because 5e is just so outsizingly large that it exploded past any other rpg by miles thanks to Stranger things, CR, and general brand recognition/pandemic. So even if Pathfinder is doing better than ever and remains one of the most popular systems around, it doesn't have near the impact 5e currently does.

As for the mini sets, I think it was really just an instance of those couple sets being a bit too niche. Even as someone who loves and plays Pf2e every week, I don't know that I have use for many of the minis in those sets. Armies of the Dead and the excitement around it tells me that the name on the box probably means less than the figures available.

But overall, any of this is speculation. What is clear is that Paizo is doing well enough to release many high quality books each year, and the system is popular enough to kick off a revamped Starfinder using the same system. As long as it's popular enough to keep profitable, I don't see why it needs to claw for space in the zeitgeist more than it already has.

Not to mention, budgets are also just tight across the board over the last couple years, so it makes sense to me that expendable costs like miniatures would be hit hard. Especially when there are 5 high quality books to also buy in that same year.

[Brophy]

Just as an informational input.

Tabletop RPGs are far cheaper than tabletop wargaming.
Games workshop is a miniature company that makes books to help sell minis. The game(warhammer) is just a byproduct of wanting to sell more minis. Their books are comparable prices but their minis are way more expensive.

Not many rpg fans are going to buy a single medium figure for $35 and then have to assemble and paint it.

Paizo is a RPG game company that licenses their IP for miniatures to be made. Paizo sounds to me, to be in a good place. I think it's just the licensed IP products that aren't doing well. That means it's time for someone to get creative, on the licensed product side, IE wizkids. I think Vexwing is making those changes and they seem to be good ones IMO. The other problem is the wizkids distribution chain which seems to be in shambles and/or is carrier pigeons that went on strike (or got caught over Ohio, if you believe in The Onion)

[Tilt]

Since most people can't see past brand, Pathfinder Battles minis will always lag behind D&D Icons minis.

But that is not the reason for the dismal slaes of Pathfinder Battles. The themes and minis in many of the past sets were just plain garbage choices. In a few cases they abandoned classic fantasy for niche culteral region mins. If PFB sets had been banger sets more like Armies of the Dead, the line would be doing better with more D&D crossover sales.

Bad themed sets with bad minis = no sales.

Can we get a few more giants who walk on their hands and have eyes in their feet please?

[Cusm]

Since most people can't see past brand, Pathfinder Battles minis will always lag behind D&D Icons minis.

But that is not the reason for the dismal slaes of Pathfinder Battles. The themes and minis in many of the past sets were just plain garbage choices. In a few cases they abandoned classic fantasy for niche culteral region mins. If PFB sets had been banger sets more like Armies of the Dead, the line would be doing better with more D&D crossover sales.

Bad themed sets with bad minis = no sales.

Can we get a few more giants who walk on their hands and have eyes in their feet please?

IMO Pathfinder has had some of the best sets Wizkids have released. Rusty Dragon is my favorite release, Seas & Shore is almost the exclusive source for nautical minis. They have had great alternate minis, but the last few sets were too niche, Magwai is probably the worst release ever, and for anyone not playing that adventure almost useless. With this new release I hope they continue like their older sets with great multi-use minis and not sets with 90% great minis and then some WW2 Russian soldiers.

[Tilt]

The sets all through 1st ed were mostly solid.

The slip started and peaked with 2nd ed sets.

[abirdcall]

I feel like the metrics are skewed because 5e is just so outsizingly large that it exploded past any other rpg by miles thanks to Stranger things, CR, and general brand recognition/pandemic. So even if Pathfinder is doing better than ever and remains one of the most popular systems around, it doesn't have near the impact 5e currently does.

This was a fine post until this.

You can prefer Pathfinder while others prefer 5e and not just because the brand was mentioned in a TV show. People really do actually like the game.

There was a point before 5e where Pathfinder actually out sold D&D.

5e is more to most player's tastes than Pathfinder and that is not an attack on Pathfinder. Both can be good games and just have a different audience.

[Sahu]

I feel like the metrics are skewed because 5e is just so outsizingly large that it exploded past any other rpg by miles thanks to Stranger things, CR, and general brand recognition/pandemic. So even if Pathfinder is doing better than ever and remains one of the most popular systems around, it doesn't have near the impact 5e currently does.

This was a fine post until this.

You can prefer Pathfinder while others prefer 5e and not just because the brand was mentioned in a TV show. People really do actually like the game.

There was a point before 5e where Pathfinder actually out sold D&D.

5e is more to most player's tastes than Pathfinder and that is not an attack on Pathfinder. Both can be good games and just have a different audience.

My apologies, I think I worded that point poorly.

The metric I was reffering to specifically was market share. What I was trying to say is that, while its true Pathfinder has lost market share over the years, I think that's largely due to the meteoric explosion of D&D gaining outside players and bringing them into the RPG sphere thanks to both brand recognition and new references in popular media putting it back in the zeitgeist. Regardless of some people hopping from 1e to 5e, I don't think it's a stretch to say that a lot of 5e's popularity comes from new folks to the rpg hobby, especially based on how it exploded during the pandemic. Most people I've spoken with who play 5e don't even know RPGs as a broader hobby exist, they just know D&D. This is mostly to say that a lot of people joined the rpg hobby in the last few years, and almost all of that was in D&D, which causes it to blow past any competition in market share by default.

The fact that it has a very approachable ruleset and a low player barrier of entry definitely helps in that avenue as well, and my intent wasn't to imply that people only play it because of brand recognition, so I'm sorry if it came off that way. It certainly does play a massive part in its popularity, however.

I 100% agree that both are fun games to play, and that there are perfectly good reasons people prefer D&D over Pathfinder. For what it's worth, I consider this rise in general popularity good for the hobby as a whole. D&D is the recognizable "name brand" RPG that leads to some people exploring many others who otherwise wouldnt have done so. Im very much of the opinion that rising tides raise all ships in this.

However, I don't think the rise in D&D market share means Pathfinder has been doing worse than it has in the past when compared with itself. That was the crux of what I was trying to say, but struggle sometimes when organizing thoughts in a post.

[BBShockwave]

It was weird to me while watching HarmonQuest that even though I could tell they were playing Pathfinder, or some homebrew version of it, they never referred to it by name. Not that that show could have rivaled Critical Role, but it could have given Paizo some media recognition. (I mean, I recognized quite a few PFB minis they were using!)

It's fine to have different opinion on things, but please, do not call me a liar.

It's why I've muted him, just for a little while anyways (first time doing that, actually). Lots of ascribing of motivations going on, and not good faith conversation.

Heck, look around on ENworld - a site that decidedly HATES D&D and WotC.

Google leads me there every once and a while, but I've never actually spent time there. Do you recommend it for any utility, or community?

Here is my beastie. Honestly, looks better than I remember it. I did an ice-base for the Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign I was running (custom Summon Construct for a player). I should re-base this thing though, and I think I'll be much happier.

ff33319f-166a-4e16-85ba-fe0dde9699ee.jpg

I mostly visit ENworld for the news, they often had a lot of info collected onnthe new sourcebooks. Unfortunately it is not managed well, the info is in a myriad of topics.
I have also popped in there every time there is some major controversial decision (like when Alignment was removed in Ravenloft, Drow were turned non-evil globally in MotM or Orcs changed or removed, or right now about Musk’s statements). However much ENworld is a super tightly moderated echo chamber, you can at least still gauge opinions about the changes there, in a more controlled way than say, Reddit. Just be prepared to see people go wildly off topic on minute rule changes for page upon page, personal attacks and flamewars, and the moderators actively choosing one side and getting involved by editing offending posts with snide comments. It’s the trainwreck effect, you cannot look away!


And nice paint work! I have been considering to buy the Deep Cuts one and try to paint it myself, after all it’s mostly monochromatic anyway.

[abirdcall]

I feel like the metrics are skewed because 5e is just so outsizingly large that it exploded past any other rpg by miles thanks to Stranger things, CR, and general brand recognition/pandemic. So even if Pathfinder is doing better than ever and remains one of the most popular systems around, it doesn't have near the impact 5e currently does.

This was a fine post until this.

You can prefer Pathfinder while others prefer 5e and not just because the brand was mentioned in a TV show. People really do actually like the game.

There was a point before 5e where Pathfinder actually out sold D&D.

5e is more to most player's tastes than Pathfinder and that is not an attack on Pathfinder. Both can be good games and just have a different audience.

My apologies, I think I worded that point poorly.

The metric I was reffering to specifically was market share. What I was trying to say is that, while its true Pathfinder has lost market share over the years, I think that's largely due to the meteoric explosion of D&D gaining outside players and bringing them into the RPG sphere thanks to both brand recognition and new references in popular media putting it back in the zeitgeist. Regardless of some people hopping from 1e to 5e, I don't think it's a stretch to say that a lot of 5e's popularity comes from new folks to the rpg hobby, especially based on how it exploded during the pandemic. Most people I've spoken with who play 5e don't even know RPGs as a broader hobby exist, they just know D&D. This is mostly to say that a lot of people joined the rpg hobby in the last few years, and almost all of that was in D&D, which causes it to blow past any competition in market share by default.

The fact that it has a very approachable ruleset and a low player barrier of entry definitely helps in that avenue as well, and my intent wasn't to imply that people only play it because of brand recognition, so I'm sorry if it came off that way. It certainly does play a massive part in its popularity, however.

I 100% agree that both are fun games to play, and that there are perfectly good reasons people prefer D&D over Pathfinder. For what it's worth, I consider this rise in general popularity good for the hobby as a whole. D&D is the recognizable "name brand" RPG that leads to some people exploring many others who otherwise wouldnt have done so. Im very much of the opinion that rising tides raise all ships in this.

However, I don't think the rise in D&D market share means Pathfinder has been doing worse than it has in the past when compared with itself. That was the crux of what I was trying to say, but struggle sometimes when organizing thoughts in a post.

Yeah, for sure. Rising tides.

One thing I will see sometimes is people saying that Pathfinder or Kobold Press or whomever are competing with D&D.

D&D competes with hobby board games and other things people do together.

I'm sure the other RPG companies are thrilled about how well D&D is doing. And you're right that they're bringing new players in. There are far more players that have started playing after 2014 than those who have ever played prior to 2014.

Where we disagree I think is that the #1 thing that has contributed to D&D's success is not brand recognition (though of course that helps keep it in people's mind) but word of mouth. TTRPGs thrive from groups bringing in new players then those players forming their own groups. I think this is primarily how 5e succeeded too.

In general people aren't going to watch a TV show and then go out and learn how to do a completely new and complicated hobby.

[Yack]

What's makes D&D stand out more than the other RPGs is it's been around longer and a history of satanic panic.... nerds... fantasy art of the 80s, a cartoon and a return to pop culture. It has nothing to do with what it is doing now (but it does help the rules have not changed that much per edition. you roll dice, be a character and go on an adventure). The history of the name alone makes it stand out ... it does not make new kids play it but it like you said word of mouth from generations of past that a kid would be like yeah, I have heard of it. The latest pop culture with Stranger Things, streaming games and such did help but still it's the name that made that happen.

Even people from the 80s-90s that did not play D&D heard of D&D (being not understanding it but they knew the term and name).

[abirdcall]

What's makes D&D stand out more than the other RPGs is it's been around longer and a history of satanic panic.... nerds... fantasy art of the 80s, a cartoon and a return to pop culture. It has nothing to do with what it is doing now (but it does help the rules have not changed that much per edition. you roll dice, be a character and go on an adventure). The history of the name alone makes it stand out ... it does not make new kids play it but it like you said word of mouth from generations of past that a kid would be like yeah, I have heard of it. The latest pop culture with Stranger Things, streaming games and such did help but still it's the name that made that happen.

Even people from the 80s-90s that did not play D&D heard of D&D (being not understanding it but they knew the term and name).

But we know that isn't true from what happened in 4e.

There was a time when Pathfinder was the #1 played TTRPG.

Regardless of brand recognition if people didn't like the game they wouldn't play it.

D&D has been around for 50 years and only in the last 10 years has it exploded in popularity. In the late 70s and early 80s it entered into pop culture as this new thing but it remained insular to a subsection of nerds.

[Yack]

What's makes D&D stand out more than the other RPGs is it's been around longer and a history of satanic panic.... nerds... fantasy art of the 80s, a cartoon and a return to pop culture. It has nothing to do with what it is doing now (but it does help the rules have not changed that much per edition. you roll dice, be a character and go on an adventure). The history of the name alone makes it stand out ... it does not make new kids play it but it like you said word of mouth from generations of past that a kid would be like yeah, I have heard of it. The latest pop culture with Stranger Things, streaming games and such did help but still it's the name that made that happen.

Even people from the 80s-90s that did not play D&D heard of D&D (being not understanding it but they knew the term and name).

But we know that isn't true from what happened in 4e.

There was a time when Pathfinder was the #1 played TTRPG.

Regardless of brand recognition if people didn't like the game they wouldn't play it.

D&D has been around for 50 years and only in the last 10 years has it exploded in popularity. In the late 70s and early 80s it entered into pop culture as this new thing but it remained insular to a subsection of nerds.

Good point even I skipped 4th Edition cause it changed too much.
So yeah, you make your case, but it was because it pissed off a big % of people when 4th Edition came... I remember the massive screaming on maxminis (me included) when it got announced. Pathfinder won that round as being number 1 because it saw the uproar and they were like let's create something for them D20 3.5 edition people. Which thank God they did because I used their books for material to continue doing 3.5 (which stopped once Pathfinder 2e came out)
just my 2 copper pieces. of thought.

[abirdcall]

What's makes D&D stand out more than the other RPGs is it's been around longer and a history of satanic panic.... nerds... fantasy art of the 80s, a cartoon and a return to pop culture. It has nothing to do with what it is doing now (but it does help the rules have not changed that much per edition. you roll dice, be a character and go on an adventure). The history of the name alone makes it stand out ... it does not make new kids play it but it like you said word of mouth from generations of past that a kid would be like yeah, I have heard of it. The latest pop culture with Stranger Things, streaming games and such did help but still it's the name that made that happen.

Even people from the 80s-90s that did not play D&D heard of D&D (being not understanding it but they knew the term and name).

But we know that isn't true from what happened in 4e.

There was a time when Pathfinder was the #1 played TTRPG.

Regardless of brand recognition if people didn't like the game they wouldn't play it.

D&D has been around for 50 years and only in the last 10 years has it exploded in popularity. In the late 70s and early 80s it entered into pop culture as this new thing but it remained insular to a subsection of nerds.

Good point even I skipped 4th Edition cause it changed too much.
So yeah, you make your case, but it was because it pissed off a big % of people when 4th Edition came... I remember the massive screaming on maxminis (me included) when it got announced. Pathfinder won that round as being number 1 because it saw the uproar and they were like let's create something for them D20 3.5 edition people. Which thank God they did because I used their books for material to continue doing 3.5 (which stopped once Pathfinder 2e came out)
just my 2 copper pieces. of thought.

I'm glad Pathfinder was there for the 3e folks.

During that time I was playing 3.5 e6 (level 6 maximum then just gain feats).

Then 5e came out and I found it to be a return to 2e in a lot of ways but with much better rules design. Now I play 5e which is designed to have most of the game take place between 5-10 which is perfect for me and then level 11 is a great way to finish a campaign.

They're both great games, 5e just appeals to a larger audience and I'm glad there is something for both of those audiences.